Kidney yin deficiency with spleen qi deficiency

forum post

Kidney yin deficiency with spleen qi deficiency

Published on 01-19-2014

"archived-user" has authored 334 other posts.


I am a TCM student and am seeking advice. I have developed 3 major conditions that have been confirmed:

- Kidney Yin deficiency

Mainly from excessive masturbation. It depleted some of my jing reserves, but I can not say it's full kidney jing deficiency (I have 29 yo) as I do not see any definite aging signs (hair graying etc.). Rather it is Kidney Yin and Yang deficiency with Yin deficiency predominant (with empty heat signs), but also some yang deficiency signs - urinary incontinence, frequent copious urine, cold feet.

- Liver qi stagnation with damp-heat

From excessive drinking and not expressing emotions. Hypochondriac pain, anxiety, ocassional anger, headaches from liver yang rising, eye floaters, and bad night vision.

- Spleen qi deficiency

Mostly from alcohol and bad eating habits, but also stagnant liver is attacking the spleen. I suffer from bloating, indigestion (not digested food in stool) and am a little underweight (189cm, 75kg, body fat 5%).

What therapy would You suggest to address all the issues? What should I treat first? Most of the formulas for one of these conditions are contraindicated for the other.

I was thinking of Bu zhong yi qi tang with the addition of Zhu Ling for spleen, Zuo Gui Wan for kidney yin and Long dan xie gan tang (short term) and then xiao yao wan for the liver. But in which order? Or maybe together?

For acupuncture I thought about sedating LIV-3, REN-13, P-6, LIV-13, LIV-14, ST-25 and tonifying REN-4, REN-6, REN-12, ST-36, SP-6, KID-3, KID-6.

What are Your suggestions?

Thank You in advance.

This post has the following associations:

Formulas: bao ji wan, jia wei xiao yao wan

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  • Comments / Discussions:

    comment by "ChadD" (acupuncturist)
    on Jan 2014

    I&#39m going to be a little direct with you, which I hope you will appreciate. First, as a TCM student, you should be getting treatment from many, many practitioners. Discuss these symptoms with them and ask them their opinions of what is going on. Do -not- treat yourself. Not only is this not the way to get better, it&#39s not the way to learn (in my opinion). You have a great opportunity in these years to work on yourself, your lifestyle habits and get a lot more experience than the school can offer - I would suggest you use it wisely.

    Outside of getting treatment directly, you need to do a few things if you haven&#39t already. First, get the lifestyle habits under control - this will be crucial when you begin to work as a practitioner which in most cases will be stressful and without established techniques (mediation, etc.) and better lifestyle/dietary habits you will get worse as you start working with people and not be an effective practitioner.

    If you are going to do something herbally - have someone properly diagnose you first (i.e. don&#39t do it yourself). If this for whatever reason is impossible, use more balanced formulas like Jia Wei Xiao Yao Wan w/Bao Ji Wan for awhile and work on yourself with meditation, tai chi, exercise, etc. and then re-evaluate after 3-6 months.

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    comment by "kamarai"
    on Jan 2014

    Hey, I totally agree with Chad. If you&#39re at a school for TCM you should, absolutely, take advantage of the interns and practitioners there. It&#39s a golden opportunity that you don&#39t wanna pass on. I also agree with him about treating yourself. Self diagnosis is a slippery slope and it&#39s easy to misdiagnose because you cant see what someone else would see. But you know what I&#39d tell you first if you were my patient? If you know what&#39s causing all your grief, how bout changing some of those habits. Got a lot of stress? Lets teach you to get a better grip on this. And speaking of grip (sorry) lets see if we can find some better outlets than excessive masturbation. You&#39re too young to start burning through your jing.

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    comment by "anon23173"
    on Jan 2014

    Thank You for Your replies. Of course I already took care of bad habits - this was the start. As soon as I knew about jing-burning properties of male orgasm I limited my sex life to zero (all kinds..). That change alone gave me tons of pure energy, but the imbalances still persist. Sory for writing about this taboo topic but it&#39s crucial in TCM.

    I also limited alcohol to minimum and took care of other bad habits (not sleeping well, etc.) - those were the things that only I could help myself. Now I am trying to get rid of imbalance and nourish and tonify organs that suffered from these habits.

    The patterns I wrote about were diagnosed by my friend who is already a TCM practitioner, although I didn&#39t ask him about the therapy (maybe I should have). My main concern is that herbs for yin deficiency may slower digestion and worsen spleen deficiency and those for spleen deficiency (bu zhong yi qi tang) may injure yin and also irritate the liver. But what is the point in tonifying yin if I can not digest it? I read that Zhu ling tang may be a good alternative here.

    Thank You for any directions.

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    comment by "anon23173"
    on Jan 2014

    Thanks for all advice!

    Why do You think Bu zhong yi qi tang can cause digestive problems? I thought it was an ideal digestive tonic / regulator. Although it can do some damage to fluids and add too much heat (especially the version with ren shen).

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    comment by "Volesky"
    on Jan 2014

    Just as you said, if often causes heat in patients. In my opinion, there are many better tonics for helping the digestive system than Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang. I do think BZYQT has merit in certain circumstances, but it is definitely not my go to for most problems.

    Not sure about where you are from, but in the US, most of us have far too much heat.

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    comment by "Volesky"
    on Jan 2014

    The trick is to find a skilled herbalist to put something together for you. Treating these things together is really not all that difficult. Very frequently we will make around 20% of a formula spleen tonics to ensure digestibility and prevent digesive upset. Often times I will not recommend Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang for this purpose because it can commonly cause digestive upset. Further, yin tonification is not a quick process. Often times I will use only 20% yin tonics in a formula while using other herbs to address main complaints or concurrent patterns (e.g. Liver stagnation). So a more complex formula may look something like:

    20% Spleen/stomach herbs (e.g. An Zhong San, Ping Wei San, etc.)

    20% Yin tonics

    60% left for chief complaints/concurrent patterns.

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    comment by "anon23173"
    on Jan 2014


    I&#39m from Poland and I must say it looks like in my country 50% of population suffers from yin deficiency and liver stagnation, so empty heat is also common, though people here eat less red meat then in US i think but drink way too much alcohol.

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    comment by "anon23173"
    on Feb 2014

    I have been to a very good TCM doctor and received a final diagnose. Looks like my root problem was a complex pattern of "Yin Fire" (introduced by Li Dong Yuan). Contemporary practitioners often call it "spleen qi sinking" but "yin fire" is much more complex. Apart from deficient spleen, Yuan qi is pushed away by the Ministerial fire which resides in Pericardium (where it should not be). I had many secondary patterns which evaluated from the root one (like yin deficiency, blood deficiency, qi deficiency), but the main problem was the deficiency of Yuan Qi, because my digestion wasn&#39 working. Supplementation of either yin, yang, or blood tonics was not working as a result. The key symptoms were hemorrhoids, prolapse of stomach (which I wasn&#39t aware of), swollen, slightly pale tongue w/teethmarks, underweight, severe fatigue and digestion problems.

    This is my current treatment:

    Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang (in a decoction - dosage for one day, split to 2 doses) with addition of Da Zao:

    Ren Shen 12g, Huang Qin 15g, Bai Zhu 12g, Gan Cao 8g, Dang Gui 9g, Chen Pi 9g, Sheng Ma 6g, Chai Hu 9g, Da Zao 6g


    Ren-4, Ren-8, Ren-12, Du-20, Kid-3, Sp-6, St-36, St-21 - tonification

    Ren-13, P-6, St-25 - sedation

    And of course spleen diet.

    After about one week I&#39m starting to feel a little better, to be exact, there are times during the day (usually afternoons after dinner) when I&#39m bursting with energy and there are times when I don&#39t have energy to even watch a movie.

    Feel free to write if You have some more suggestions.

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    comment by "Volesky"
    on Feb 2014

    Just based on your description of having lots of energy sometimes and almost none other times, it sounds like a poor regulation of blood sugar. This is incredibly common. When your blood sugar is steady, you should feel balanced energy all day. When the blood sugar fluctuates, you tend to have periods of extreme energy or just more energy, followed by periods of fatigue, foggy mental clarity, and probably sugar/carb cravings. This can be a sign of reactive hypoglycemia.

    The trick here is diet. Diet is the MOST important piece. You need to find the right balance of protein, fat, and carbohydrates. The big problem is that most people eat FAR too many carbohydrates. It may be too your advantage to look further into how to balance blood sugar through diet. Most often it includes decreases total carbohydrates (grains, pasta, baked goods, sugar, fruit, etc.) and increasing healthy fats (found in meats, cold pressed oils, etc.) and protein.

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    comment by "anon20135"
    on Jan 2018

    I need a good Tcm doctor. Could some one kindly recommend one. I have kidney yin deficiency. Thank you

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    comment by "anon209915"
    on Jun 2018

    30 years ago i have back pain . it start as a character problem - you live in fear - fear drain energy from kidney thus causing you to have back pain . your suffering begin quite some time back say 10 years and before and couple with bad habits . that put a lot of weight on your kidney and much later 10 years later degenerate your liver. no matter what medicine or tuina exercise will not help. First detoxic and nourish the kidney and liver ,at the same time diffuse your fear or learn to accept it. For your information to relife the back pain I suggest cupping and blood letting and then go for yoga. , you will find very much relife not cure.

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    comment by "anon142986"
    on Oct 2019

    I know I’m a little late here, but still I think this.will be useful to posterity.

    To restore kidney yin I would suggest trying some chi kung! (Also spelled qi gong). Right now, rub your hands together, gather qi, and place them in the area of your kidneys, charging them with intent. Rub them and gently beat.on them…repeat 3 times.
    There’s many more exercises-- Dr. Chang is a great resource on internal exercise for the organs. In his internal exercises book he also explains the deer exercise which is a way to store and grow root/sexual/kidney jing. By the way, I haven’t worn my glasses in 5 years now because the eye exercises from that book improved my vision!

    Have you heard of medicinal pourridges, aka congee? According to Bob Flaws (book of jook) acient TCM practitioners would use that before even herbs or acupuncture. Food must be 100 degrees…cooking, heat is more energy, thus transforming food. Ice cold water and submarine sandwiches sure do sink the qi!

    As far as tonifying yin, altho some are viscous and heavy (im thinking rehmannia root), mix with some orange peel for some dry aromatic assistance. Cardamom is good for that too along with helping adrenals. You could also put a splash of herbal drink in your congee. Digestive power will restore from the long cook time. Aside herbals, food can help and is simple. Millet is a yin tonifyer for example (also a plus, does not feed candida!). Add a pinch of cardamom, some bone broth and you’ll be well on your way to some bonus jing. Throw in some goji berries and you’ve tonified liver/kidney yin (lung too) which will also help with eyes and night vision. There’s a phrase called “draining the swamp” as in dampness that I know gobo, aka burdock root is great for. It will also help clear heat (like bok choy and dandelion). Check out some yin/yang food charts.

    You already aware of so much, and already turned the problem around! And you have started before you hit the danger zone…so keep it up, balancing fire & water…harmonizing your internals and externals (Straight Bamboo has great articles on "How to stay healthy in [season]), calm the pendulum and breathe easy-relaxing in this machine world? in itself a challenge. Listen to your solar plexus more than the over-thinking mind. All of these modalities made me strong. No sickness, no backpain. Peace and inner strength# hope this is helpful.

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